Fort Worth auction should make all those realize that right at the moment and for the foreseeable future concrete pumping equipment that was 10 years old went for 25% in the best case of original purchase price. There is no more outlandish residual in pumping equipment. Now we must all start pumping and making profits at that rather than the equipment for that has been reduced to 2.5 % a year that will off set the tax for buying a  new piece and further reduce the residual to 1.5% a year.

Well now that means we must all raise price substantially or NO ONE WILL SURVIVE.

The old industry leader’s that made a small profit, and were able to sell their iron for 100% of purchase price after 5 years to recoup profits that business model is GONE forever.

That means we go back to 27 year old prices do the cost of living and add a 15% margin into those 27 year old prices and times them by two (since the cost of living has gone up 97% since 1980.

To put things in perspective if 28M were going for $75.00 hr in 1980 and $1.50 a yard in today’s dollars that would be $175.00 an hour and $3.50 a yard. To achieve the same rate of return plus a 15% margin. Now in 1980 a new 31M was about 180K today they are 360K-$380k so the manufacturers have kept up just fine and then some. What the hell happened to us? This industry is imploding and this last auction was just the start.

What size of pumps were they and what make ?  Were they in average condition ?  I allways heard that certain pumps held at least 50 to 65% of their value at that age, so I guess what you saw this proves no longer to be the case. 

Sure would hate to be stuck with a fleet and be worth 1/2 of what it's on the books for.  Your right folks better wake up and think about what their true cost of business is and stop kidding themsevles, pride buys you nothing at the check out counter.  Know your cost or bye bye no matter large or small.  If the pump rental market leader(s) set the pace others will follow, but that takes a leader one with a set of b___ are there none of these left anymore   

Think of that profits for; all now wouldn't that be a better world.

I heard 2 32s x went for 85K & 87K, one 36x went for 96K 42 for 105, 42 for 130K and another '98 42 went for 175K. I heard they were 1996 and newer. All brand S.

I know it sucks when you are the one with the instantly depreciated pump... but perhaps someone can explain to me why anyone would buy the expensive spread when it is made out of the same exact components as the less expensive brand. Perhaps this is a period of equalization. A rational, logical lessening of a comodity price to better represent the actual worth.

Just a thought.

And yes, no matter what type of machine you own - you pump too cheaply.

No it's a fundamental way that business has been run for the last twenty years or more in this industry. Pump at losses or breakeven and pickup profit on the sale. Voodoo economics. All brands are not created equal. Those who know equipment well can see. Look at the booms, welds and structural components.

As a safety dude you should be the first one to admit booms in the air under stress is NOT the same as designing a piece of sheet metal on cad for a car body part. Some of this will come to light in the future as these pumps get field tested instead of life cycle tested proto types for 200-500k life cycles.

here is my example i bought a top brand a 2000 tkb-30 it has 850 hours i believe list price was 28k i got it for 23k and put 2k of options on it. well tryed to sell it last year for 19k and no one gave a dam. the factory rep said i could get 17k in los angeles. the original dealer has it on consignment from the evil X witch for 23k its on reed used site. well list price is 30k and most dealers will not floor one due to cost. its a fair value. 

Maybe that brand model has not build up a good following in the field, hence the lower re-sale value.

Why do you want to sell it? Could it be for the same reason people will not pay a good price for it now? Ball valve pumps are well accepted in the LA area. It seems strange that you have a problem getting a good price on a "Huncrete"  

D.T.

Do you consider your Cifa as a long term winner? How about a Jun-Jin/Alliance?

I have seen ALL brands fail. The more population - the more failure. If, as is evident, we would stop overloading these booms then we could stop acting surprized when they have structural failures. As a safety gut I would have to say that it is a problem with the owners, not the pumps. The thing that makes it tricky is that one owner abuses a boom and it fails for the next one. The liability is with the guy that owns the machine when it fails.

If you have knowledge of which brands are immune to this, please share it.

I would advise you do your own DD before buying any brand. I think an investment as large as a concrete pump deserves a hard look, especially at testing of product before it is introduced to market, a close inspection of weld techniques, materials used in production, actual components used and ISO 9000 for international quality standards. In my estimation I would also talk to small owners who have nothing to gain from giving you input on their experiences. I would look at how operator friendly and the simplistic of the machinery. Are you buying ancient technology or modern design? Anyone worth their salt knows that the fancy dancy computers couples with massive amounts of e-stops have caused more failures in job completions than any other factor.I would take a hard look at the remotes and how smooth the boom operates and how well the machines is matched with the remote system. I would look the machines backup system and ease of clean out if failure occurs. I would look at how long the manufacturer has been building machines as well and how they are set up to distribute and support the equipment. If they are NOT setup in the US I would question as to why. If you have a problem in a legal issue what are your legal ramifications on suing a manufacturer out side the US. All these would make a difference to me as to what I would buy and I have made my choice based upon my experience and my knowledge of 30 years. I am extremely pleased with my choice and the product continues to exceed my expectations and continues to amaze me especially when I make it a point to look at watch other brands performances and pay close attention to all of the points I made above. It's your money and you must live with whatever choice you make. It's no longer a Duopoloy.

D.T.

I agree with all of your points, well thought and said.

Some arguments are more political than currently factual however. Much ink is wasted discussing “old technology”. Once upon a time – should be followed by ‘in the past’. The old technology rap that is pointed at the Korean brands is not a viable argument. In 1998 or 1999 that may have been the case. I find it no longer so. The idea that is still given as a reason to discount a brand is more histrionic than factually correct. A non-negative negative. A simple sales tool for the tool less.

Bob did I mention Korea? If you would like me to mention countries I might mention China for starters. Old technology and old designs are still prevelant on knock offs and startups. I would be happy to provide you with a Sany  and Hunpuda links. I would advise not putting Concrete Pump in mouth or licking the paint and please dont try to feed it to your dog.

It is interesting that you bring up Sany.

I have never seen a Sany pump so I have no opinion good or bad. I do however like their idea of opening a manufacturing facility here in GA. It shows a commitment not seen for a long time. Too many "pump sellers" make no commitment to infrastructure in this country. They want the goody with out the commitment; like a teenageer on a date. Sany has purchased a large plot of ground just south of Atlanta and are just getting underway towards building a real manufacturing facility. It won't be a place to mount pumps that are made somewhere off-shore.

My guess is that the initial product will be serviceable, heavy and not representative of our American model of bright polished aluminum and chrome; none of which help you pump the concrete, but do look very nice. Like it or not we are a member of the world community; as are they.

Without ever having seen one I will not pre- judge the product. One thing that I know for sure about the Sany pump is that when it pressures out; it goes into reverse (like every concrete pump should do) and does not sit there and pressure out to no avail. So sight unseen, I would not count them out.

Based on their commitment to this country, no one else had better either.

The manufactures are kind of at fault for pumps showing up at auctions. All of them got greedy and over-saturated the markets! My question is, how many pumps will make it to auction over the next 16 months? 100-500? I like the idea of dumping them on foreign markets! 

My take on the auctions is that it is the financial institutions that are the burr under this saddle. All manufactures are in the business to manufacture, and sell as much as they can. The exception being those manufacturers that participate in the purchase by way of guarantees or other equally sleezy methods.

Some would be pump purchaser that has nothing to bring except the idea of pump ownership is aided in this ill conceived effort by someone wanting to lend money at a higher than normal rate. This predatory lender gets his 'goody' up front. He could not care how long the new owner takes to go into the going out of business - business. That guy, along with all his like minded asshole buddies stand right beside the dishonest manufactures subsidizing the members of the soon to be bankrupt.

The rest of the manufacturers are forced to compete against these people, and sometimes with these people to get their products out on the road.

As far as getting this surplus out of the country... the pitiful worth of the American dollar is helping in that regard. Last week I asked a caller from Russia why he was looking at the US and he said

"Because your dollar is in the toilet." what could I say to him???

Here is your link, notice the roll and fold design and outriggers from the past. Perhaps the reason when it high pressures it goes into reverse is the paint. Sorry that was a bit cruel but this is an old style design as like all those who have joined the world wide pumping community as of late. I have not seen a design or a techinical break through from any manufacturer in over a decade. I have seen some go back to proven technology and some design so fishing poles. Been around long enough to see a good design, Sany aint got it yet and I stress yet. When you can point out welds and boom design to match Italy let me know, the Germans forgot and or copied Italy as did the Koreans. Italy has long designed booms and been very good at it for well over 30 plus years now. You may remember both of the big two had Italian built booms at one or more times in their histories.

REAL INTERTAINING CONVERSATION. I LIKE MY OLD PUMP. IM LUCKY ENOUGH TO ONLY HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT ONE IN THIS MARKET. WITH RATES LIKE THEY ARE WHEN IM READY FOR ANOTHER IT WILL PROBABLY BE OVER 10 YEARS OLD TOO. MY 2 CENTS.  MY DADDY USED TO SAY IF IT AINT BROKE DON'T F--K WITH IT.

Antonelli makes very good booms.

I hit "save" too soon.

I have also seen more after production 'fish plates' on Italian booms than everywhere else combined. So... no one company has all the answers.

As far as the innovation goes; the Korean booms (not all) articulate way over center on more than just the tip section. THAT is a very good concept.

The guy that owns one pump, perhaps two, should own a roll and fold, not a Z. If you need to extend over a deck and your 'Z' happens to fold the wrong direction at that heigtht; you will understand the versitility of a roll and fold. "Z"s are cool & fast, but only the roll and fold has a 0% area lack of coverage in front of the boom.

Finally some honest opinions around here,one question I have for the powers that be, will these low auction and resale prices put pressure on the manufacturers to drop their new product prices,similar to what the industry itself has done to stay afloat.The word CORRECTION has been flying around for some time now,does that mean manufacturers drop or we raise? Or do we all accept this has become a hobby and were doing it for the betterment of mankind with nothing to gain??Excederin anyone???

10,

That is a great question, I wish I had the answer. No matter what - the prices for pumping need to be raised. The best oportunity for that was EVERY DAY for the last three years; I am afraid that time has past. When you get calls for a pump and you are too busy to handle the pour you can do one of two things. (1) buy more pumps, which is what happened... and you see where we are today. (2) RAISE YOUR PRICE and make some money with the machines that you own. The folks that did that are now in a better position to weather this particular storm. Lord only knows when things will be on the up-swing again.

As for your 'correction'. What would you, as the owner of a large fleet of pumps, do if the company that you gave millions of $$$ to LOWERED their prices? Just as an example, what if 1 Jan, 2008 Putzmeister slashed 30% off of their price? What would the big players that had just had 30% of their equity cut out of the company books think? What would the finance company that financed the last full price machine think? That would be a bad day at black rock for the people on the phone at Putz when that news hit the street. WOW!

Correction? - perhaps a 9.9 on the  Richter scale.

A correction of sorts is and has been available for some time. The resources for that correction are on the right side of the page; resources for sesible pricing.

The correction may need to be in the logic center of your mind: If you can't charge more, pay less.

Real stuff here, so many good points.  One way to look at the on going subject of service charges is think of the following;   industry manufactures/costs of the pumping business are to us kinda like what the portland cement suppliers are to the ready mix guys. (sure they have other increases every year, but this is their platform)  when the portland guys go up in price due to costs, it is not long before price of ready-mix follows to adjust their EBITA. We all have seen ready mix go up over 30-40 dollars in the past 7 years.  Sure what happens is the concrete contractor b..thes, put pays , sure they could go to another supplier, but they the ready mix guys all follow suit and price increase letters from all hit the streets, then they are smart enough not to cave in, sure they will ask 5 and get 3.50 but they got something and somehow the price keeps going up every year. They send letters not only to contractors but everyone in the chain from the owners to the design arcs down so when a project is put together these added costs are accounted for, so things get back to business.  and then it repeats itself around jan next year or next increase.  So they get their 5 bucks or more a yard year after year, If you pump and you don't send out a price increase letter every jan then sit there and cry, you are not a leader and do not try to control your future.   If you do than bravo, then make your staff be accountable to follow.  If you are think that your competitor will take all of your work, then you are going to go broke anyhow, its just a matter of time , remember you can send letters to whomever you like, monkey see, monkey do.

On another note, yes if you buy from a manufacture/supplier that does not have a legal business residence here in the states ( hence a clue XYZ-America Inc. or XYZ USA Inc. or they where established here) then you will probally have a problem on legal matters, but hopefully you never have to go in that direction.  It is your duty to check that out before you buy as you should do with anything.  

Bob, have you ever seen the Contractor's Blue Book? Thet are in the business to provide contractors and owners with rental rates based on costs and weather factors or zones as they call them. If you look at virtually and industry in the blue book you will find rental rates for equipment are in line or close to what the blue book publishes. With one exception Concrete Pumps, we are so far out of line with rental rates it's pathetic and have been for years. Now who uses the Blue Book ? Estimators thats who, so when we are pumping for 50% of blue book rental rates the contactors, estimators use that book like a bible. For the most part so does every one else in the rental world with the exception of Concrete Pumping Industry. Now the only blue book I have on hand is from 1996 (I stopped my subscription since no one in our industry gives a flying you know what)

Now one must take into consideration these accoutants take the cost of the pumping unit less the chassis and less labor and less yardage figures. According to this blue book a 32M 1993 Schwing should rent for $905.00 a day or $135.00 per hour. The hourly operating costs for hydralic oil changes filters etc is $17.35 per hour. Now lets add the chassis. According to this a chassis with 75,000 GWR rating costs $33.80 an hour plus an additional $19.80 an hour in maintaince costs. Now lets add the labor and we know that varies but for sake of argument lets take $35.00 and hour.

So that puts the cost of operation at some $240.95 an hour in 1996 for a 32X Schwing with 171 yph. Now add the maintaince costs for yardage placed per hour.

So in 1996 a 1994 988 CAT rental was $105.00 per hour and cost of operation $37.80 per hour plus labor and lets throw $35.00 on there as well. So the total there was $177.80 per hour. Now the 10 year old CAT had resale of about 50%-60%.Are those numbers accurate? of course they are.

These figures are put together by basic accounting principals used by every other industry except the Concrete Pumping Industry, we as an industry can choose to follow this book and it is NOT collusion it is based on COSTS. Anyone got a 2007 Blue Book? If you do will you post it just as I did please or E mail me and fax the copy and I will post it.

BTW all figures are based upon a rate factor of 1, now if you live in an area with full utilization the factor maybe .75 and if you live in a area with winter your rate factor maybe 1.25. It also has factors for Federal Projects which INCREASE the rental rates.

For instance seasonal adjustments for Alaska are as follows, Northern Alaska is 1.427, Central Alaska has a factor of 1.247 and Southern Alaska is 1.337.

So if the CAT 988 rental was $105.00 per hour take Northen Alaska adjustment times the 1.427 and the rental rate for the 988 should be $149.84 plus the $37.80 per hour plus labor. So where I live the regional adjustment is .875 or the machine here would rent for $92.00 per hour plus the $37.80 per hour or $129.00 an hour for a 988 CAY in 1996.

I am listed in the Blue Book, but I do not subscribe to the service.

A true statement is; "If you do not ask for a rate increase for your goods and services you will not get one."

Another true statement; If everyone doubled their pumping prices on Jan 1, 2008 they would make more money.

Dick tracy says

That means we go back to 27 year old prices do the cost of living and add a 15% margin into those 27 year old prices and times them by two (since the cost of living has gone up 97% since 1980.

Good start and a giant step in the right direction. The cost of doing business has gone up at a higher rate than the cost of living.

SO WHY IN THE HELL ARE ALL OF YOU NOT CHARGING MORE???????

Everyone else in the world has increased their prices; are not you as good as ...... someone?

ShortBus,

You are right. But what if you were doing less work for more money?

Even 10% less work for 10% more money?

50% less work for double your todays price?

Do the math, the only way you loose is to do just like you did.

Maybe but they use the blue book and if they had a long project why not use the blue book monthly rental rates and lease them the pump. The same pump I quoted above the monthly rental is $12,950.00 a month plus maintaince add the truck at $3100.00 a month and add the maintaince in 1996 numbers. How many Generals go out and buy excavation equipment? We know they buy Cranes, the point is the Blue Book is the bible to them as well.

D.T.

Man, you are correct!

The bus has gone by and we missed it again, and again, and again.

Well why would that not be part of the ACPAs training for business owners. At that point if the business were profitable than maybe the business could run the ACPA instead of the manufacturers. Perhaps with true associated costs from the Contractors Blue Book listed on the ACPA web site those General Contractors would know the costs associated rather than listen to a salesman who represents the manufacturers. If the information was out there WHO WOULD BUY THE EQUIPMENT? THAT’S WHY THE MANUFACTURERS CONTROL THE ACPA AND DO START YELLING COLUSION EVERY TIME WE START DIALOG ON COSTS. With out the manufactures there would be no ACPA unless we as an industry take it over boot the manufacturers out and start to have true dialog on costs. The Blue Book is a PUBLISHED journal it is NOT COLLUSION IT IS A TOOL THAT DETERMINS COSTS BASED ON GENERAL ACCOUNTING PRINCIPALS FOR A MYRIAD OF EQUIPMENT.

We should start a new thread.

You have just hit on one of my "button issues".

The ACPA should be 'of - by - for' the American concrete pumpers.

Makers of pumps/ not eligible for membership

Makers of anything/ not eligible for membership

Me/ not eligible for membership

The ACPA should be the ACP - A

It should be made up of ONLY American concrete pumpers.

It should be a clearing house for the membership for; insurance on equipment, health insurance for all operators and mechanics, a credit union for its membership, the home of the ACPA 401K, in general it should be an association FOR the pumpers.

I know that when I admit that this is the way I feel that I alienate large groups of people, and really do my self no favor; so be it. It is a wonderful organization that if it wanted to, could be so much more.

mybad

Anyone on this board renewed insurance policy with the ACPA backed broker?

Tell me what a program placement and service fee is...It gotta list here of what it is for....IMHO it's going to the ACPA, so the ACPA is wanting/getting 5% on policies.

So on a 45k policy they with all the hands in the pie I doubt the policy costs 35k and yes every one has to make a profit and then over and above there appears to be another 5%. So all totaled around a 32.2% margin. Screw pumping I’ll do that for the association in a heart beat just wait for you rubes to renew.

So you got the ACPA charging an 5% premium you got NSM charging a commission and you got your broker charging a premium. Now the 5% needs to be signed separately agreeing to the fee. Why...IMHO the ACPA is getting the money. Over 1 million in the bank I'll bet they have more money than 90% of the members. Great group, look at who runs it. Time for a change in the White House and time to either start a real group for the people by the people to better the people or clean the association out from head to toe.

Just like a homeowners association lets see whos on the board and the associations financials.This seems like a good start to me?