So I had a pour go terribly bad yesterday, nothing broke on my pump but I just couldn't get the mix to go (6500 blended limestone 26A & 6a). Ran 36m +40' of line. The slump tested at 6.5" going in to the pump and 2.25" at point of discharge crazy I know. Air was 7.5 and temp was 73 degrees.  Anyhow sent back 3 trucks with for a total of 26.5 yds and dicked around for 12.5 hours and only placed 1/2 yd. So today a different pump company came in and pumped it out in 15 min so as you can guess the contractor is blaming me and telling me they lost $27,790.00 And I need to cover it. Once we called it I sucked my ball back which told me there were no obstructions in my pipe then today I went out and did 2 pours with no problems. So my questions are, what would you do in this situation? Eat it or fight it? Why and how could you possibly loose 4.25" of slump just through a 36m with an additional 40' of line? Any advise or suggestions would be great. Also this is one of my best customers so it's very hard to tell them "that's the way it is, deal with it". 

Sounds like the mix was off. Should not lose that much slump. Did they change mix the next day?

supposedly the mix was the same (state design) so I'm waiting to see how the test cylinders they made the day I was there break. 

Seems you have the technical documentation to turn the liability towards the readymix company, you may have a case againts them. However the smart approach would be sit down with your 'valued customer' (and maybe the readymix company) and discuss a method of recuperating the costs over the next year or two (in a diplomatic way) from other jobs, that way you both dont feel the burden of covering the costs in a lump sum from one day of misfortune. It just depends on how you approach this tricky situation. If the evidence is there of something was not quite right on the day, you would think your reputation long term preceding this incident would allow for some wiggle space in negotiations.

I've never pumped limestone so can't say for sure, but porous rock will when pressurised in the pump absorb the water from the mix making it near impossible to pump. This kind of rock needs to be soaked with water for a good day before using so it's already full and won't suck the water from the mix! 

What kind of Pump ?

I am wondering about the condition of your wear parts. Poor seal at the point of pressure can make a rough mix unpumpable, can also affect the slump at end of boom.

I would check my wear parts , cups , cutting ring , spec plate , if you was losing that much slump sounds to me like they may have had it dosed pretty good with water reducer instead of h2o , the test cylinders will not help you if this is the case , I have encountered this and added 5 gallons of water and went from losing 3-4 inches of slump to losing less than a inch , depending on how good and valued of a customer they are would strongly effect my decision.

The customer is good for about 30-40k per year, I have spoken with the foreman and the owner of the company and settled on a reduced rate until the balance is covered. I could have gotten away free on the whole deal (per my terms and conditions) but reputation is everything especially as a young company owner (28). Thank you all for the advice.

Who can guarantee you that the RM company didn't make some mistake the day before? Of course they sharpened their pencils the next day to make sure the job would go perfect so they wouldn't have to take the blame for the problems. Maybe they used more retarder next day or whatever. More water instead of SP.. Soaked the aggregate before use.. So many things you can change to make it work. Sure they will tell you its was the exact same mix next day. If there is one type of company I don't trust its RM plants.. 

What dimension line did you use? And what size did your competitor use?

I'm quite surprised you setle for paying all the dammage but I don't know your situation..

Let's do some math. 26.5 yards lost at how much/ yd. Even at $150.00 is less than $4000.00. Where does the other $23,000 come from. Maybe some finisher time but how many finishers does it take to finish 26 yds. Maybe some cleanup But they were ready to pour the next day. So really where does the $27,000 come from??

Next, you say this customer is "Valued" and I can appreciate that. Every customer is valued until they are not. A true "valued' customer would have you sit down and try to find out what really happened on THEIR pour. But assuming this is all your fault ( I don't think so) this "valued" customer gives you about $40,000/ year or about $800/week. If you run at even 25% profit, which is doubtful but we'll go with that, you will be pumping for 2 1/2 years to get even with this one pour. That's 2 1/2 years of flawless pumping. That is pumping until the summer of 2017 for free.

If it were me I'd tell this "valued" customer exactly what you told us. That you didn't do a thing to your pump and you pumped flawlessly the next day. If your customer is so knowledgeable about the pump being the problem, then ask him what that problem is. I am sure he doesn't know.

One more thing....did you try to pump anything straight out of the boom? If you did and your problem was after your hooked your 4" line up, then it has to be the mix. Pumps do not break down at the reducer!! ( as long as you didn't have some obstruction in your hose)

Lastly, there is an entire industry that is in place because of the inconsistencies of concrete. It is the industry that tests concrete. If concrete is exactly the same every day , why test it?  Just be cause another pump pumped the same design THE NEXT DAY doesn't mean they would be able to pump the trucks you were given. Ask your customer why they have to test their concrete every day if the concrete is consistantly the same. The answer is "Because every day is different" and you my friend , in my humble opinion, were given a bad deal.

I wouldn't let them push you around. You obviously know what you are doing, owning your own company at 28 years old. Go get'em. And if they don't see it your way find another customer that values what you do.

Are you suppling concrete? no. So you are not liable. You are just suppling a service. Did you ask the contractor where their wheelbarrows are or their backup pump was that was on standby.  JMO BAD MIX

Captain your answer is morally the correct answer there quite possibly was a problem with mix design but, what if the contractor owed you $30,000 would you still be blowing your trumpet? Or would you be more reasonable in your approach?

Luckyphil I think you got your rocks mixed up limestone don't   soak water now lite weight rock will and needs to be soaked in water before its pumped.Thats all I ever pumped in a line pump.

Pumbo........If the customer owed me $30,000 and he was a $40,000/year customer that would indicate a problem wouldn't it.  When a customer owes me for 3/4  of a year, 270 days, they are not considered a valued customer.

That being said, I would still have to question just where this valued customer came up with over $27,000 in back charges for a 26 yd pour.

So Pumbo since this customer owes you $30,000, 9 months worth of work, you would just let him keep 27 K because he thinks your pump was at fault when it pumped fine the next day? Really?

I've seen the competitions 55m pump go down on a 400 yard deck pour with 150 yards  on the job or en route. They called the pour off and back charged the pump company $22,000. How the hell does 26 yards equal a $26k charge?????

Also, not sure what you charge, but where I am, a $30k/year customer is a guy who pours once a month. I consider all customers "great", but would reconsider if they tried to nail me for that amount. Think I would have to tell them to F off. 

 I let customers know that we're not an insurance company. If they feel it's worth it, we will sell them insurance in the form of another pump, delivered to site, and then they can pay for it.   Then if there is an issue with the pump it's entirely our problem.  

   your insurance company charges you a higher premium to insure a $400,000 pump versus a $30000 pickup truck.   Why then should you supply a 36m pump to a site with 30 men and 400 yards to pour for the same hourly rate as a 5 yard footing with two guys on site?  The answer is simple, you're not guaranteeing to cover their costs in the event of an equipment malfunction.  

As a side note, if you do choose to cover the customers costs (which as everyone mentioned don't appear to be your fault) make sure you do it at cost and not billable rate.  Labour will often come in at $40-50 an hour, or less, and if you call the readymix company, they will often drop below $100 per cubic meter to cover trucking and materials.    Why should anyone profit on someone else's misfortune?    We offer a similar discount on occasion when Crete is really late, form work fails, inspection doesn't pass etc. and the customer can't backcharge their costs elsewhere.  We make the profit back when we do the job the next day, and it builds a good relationship and loyalty with the customer.  

I agree the damage figures do not add up.

It's not uncommon to rung up over 30,000 per month for one client with larger boom. Maybee the OP figures where purposely wrong which he is not obligated to state, if HYPOTHTICALLY he is only making for example $50,000 p.a and he is owed $27,000 definitely a problem here - I agree 100%.

But your missing my point, which is, if he owed you $30,000 and you were hit with $27,000, how would you respond? Short answer: Proboably the same resolution as the OP.

Greenguy.......That is good stuff. I never thought of your analogy of not being an insurance company. I will put that in my book of "Things to Say When Things Go South".

And Pumbo, of course I don't just fire off a bunch of "Things to Say When Things Go South". There is always some give and take in any relationship...just ask my wife. From Goat's post though it sounded like he just rolled over and took a beating first for the 12 hour nightmare and then for the next 2 1/2 years without any consideration that it just might not be his fault, which everyone on this site seems to think (even if his cutting ring is worn ).  

I had a job last week where the first load pumped great the next was pure rock. Apparently the rock gate stuck open or the loader put rock in the sand bin. It happens. How did you handle it? i would have broke hoses and got mud at 20 feet then more and more, or did it not even pump through the boom? 

in some cases certain limestones are put under a sprinkler due to there poreous nature , it does help on certain aggregates.

Beast,you sound like you know your stuff........You are defenitly a rare breed these days.Good luck in your endeavours and tell your guys to keep the dirty side down.

In reply to the pricing I was thrown off by it at first as well. The price of the mix is $850 per yd they sent back 26.5 yds ($22525.00) then they wanted to charge me for 9 guys all with 9 hrs of ot at $65 per hr. ($5265.00) Add those two together and you get $27,790. The labor is fine but what pisses me off is that the RM company marked up the mud so high. It's a state job and a state spec mix and they say it's pretty much going rate. This is where I get really mad. I've pumped tens of thousands of yds on state jobs this year all with state spec mixes and it sickens me that they can literally RAPE the taxpayers like this. Sure guys are getting work out of but at what cost? I have to pay taxes just like everyone else and I think if people knew how much money was being pissed away there would be riots. It's BS plain and simple. I took the mix design to a trusted friend at a RM company and he said they could make the same mix for around $145 per yd. state specs and all. I belive it's the fact that the RM company that delivered the mud was 40 miles away and the only plant within a 60 mile radius. With only 1.5 hours of time allowed from batch they knew they could get whatever they wanted.  Anyhow, I said I would gladly pay Actual cost for concrete and labor IF the test cylinders come out correct with the specd design, but there's no way in hell I'll pay $850 a yd for concrete. I have yet to be informed on the status of the cylinders so this is leading me to believe that they did in fact just have a bad mix. 

Also I have written to all 14 of my congressmen to offer a hand in helping with their infostructure budget for 2015. 

The worst part about it all is that everyone always remember the bad jobs. I strive for perfection everyday and try to be the best operator anyone has ever had and 99 out of a 100 times it goes great. Nobody remembers the 99 good times, just the one bad time. This is not a job we do do, this is a profession, plain and simple. This isn't something you pick up overnight, in a week, or even a year. This is something that teaches you every day and for some reason people don't see it that way. The day I think I know everything about pumping concrete is the day I stop caring to learn. 

Those are absolutley ridiculous prices! No way. Labor included.

Well Mr. Goat,

It's been a week since your nightmare . I'll bet you haven't had to turn a wrench on your pump yet. Am I right?

according to my calculations, your hourly rate should be around $1250 per hour and 50 bucks a yard. add about $200 per foot of rubber hose, maybe a fuel surcharge, and your bill is like 25k. Maybe you owe them a couple grand, no big deal, thats only an hour and a half!!

P.S. i hope my customers dont see this post about some pump company paying a grand per yard just cuz some shit didnt go thru his machine, hope my redimix suppliers dont see it either!!

and to answer your question in your original post...."do i eat it or fight it?"...

you may tell your customer to his face that he is your best customer, you may tell the world wide web that he is your best customer, and he will tell you that he is your best customer, BUT...

he thru you under the bus to the tune of a grand per yard, and i would look for a new best customer.

sorry for your bad luck, Goat, but your misfortune, and your guts to share it here, has brought a lot of smart, knowledgeable people out of the crevices to give very good advice. i learnt a lot here this week!! thanks

@ dipstick we both used 4"

@ Capitan Ron, the only thing I had to do to my pump in the last week was prime pump and wash. Not a single problem At all.  And crazycreater, maybe I'll send out that rate quote in my Christmas cards. I'm liking the way that sounds. 

It's a miracle !!........totally healed with a pumpable mix. Have you pumped for your valued customer yet?

Crazycreter has a good poit. This is actualy very bad for the industry. Just giving a customer 25K because a pour went wrong probbably without you doing anything wrong. Sorry to say Goat but in my eyes you made a horrible call. But I wasn't there so I might be wrong.. 

@ Dipstick I haven't given them a dime yet and and after all this discussion I probably won't. And Ron yes I have done two pours for them since without a problem! 

Goat......I continue to read this thread and every post except one says that you were probably not to blame. The one post that doesn't completely exonerate you simply asks you to look at your cutting ring and wear plate. I assume your parts are in decent shape as you haven't mentioned changing it, or being concerned about it and you have had nothing but successful pours since.

I am curious as to why your customer calls you for 2 more pours when he is totally convinced that you had a problem with your pump. As a contractor if I was covinced that your pump caused such a huge problem for me and then you tell me that you didn't do any thing to your pump I would be very leary calling you again. Many things are not adding up i.e. the cost/yd of the mud, the cost/man of the help, 9 finishers for 26.5 yds (3yds./man) and the confidence that your customer shows in you by calling you again even though he believes you are COMPLETELY at fault and he has been told by you that you didn't do anything to your pump.

One more thing, how much help did you receive from the 9 finishers that you are paying $65.00/ hour for. I don't know what you did to try to make this pour go But I would imagine you had to shake some 4" hose and possibly break some elbows open among other things. Just curious.

again if I were you I wouldn't roll over and bite $28 grand. Why don't you show your customer this thread. There are some pretty knowledgeable guys answering this thread. Most of them are knowledgeable because they were in your shoes at least once before like me.

Thats good Goat! I felt sorry for you.

Now bare with me because I didn't want to read through the whole list but did you try to pump out more than one truck? I sure hope you are not that naïve as to call it on the first load or second for that matter... It sounds like they didn't soak the lightweight the day before as someone has already stated. But even so the job could still have been pumped with a good dose of getrdone.

it was limestone not lightweight

I have had lots of mix issues with small line mixes. Now I ask for the batch weights BEFORE I confirm the order.As to your plugging situation, the batch weight tickets will tell the story...ASK for them.

@ Capitan Ron, cutting ring and wear plate (carbide) were brand new June of this year so I know that wasn't the problem, also didnt receive much help from the finishers or laborers on the job. the reason I ended up hearing back from my customer was because the test cylinders ended up breaking at 1267 lbs after 10 days. So all in all there was a problem at the batch plant. So not my fault, which is of course what I thought. What I hope everyone can learn from this is DO NOT BE COCKY! Sure you may be a great operator and you may know your mix designed but at the end of the day what really pays off is treating EVERY customer like they are your best. 

I think you should pad your bill, and submit it to the RM company. Make them pay an outrageous amount for all your troubles. Lol

Sounds to me like the RM company sent you a bad mix, getting them to admit that though is another matter. Sorry about your bad day.

Goat.

Really glad to hear that you will be exonerated on this one as you should be. Now, it's time for you to submit your bill for your day. 12 hours of pure hell is worth something. Submit it with "all due respect".

Understand this though Goat...even if concrete comes up to strength , it doesn't mean its pumpable. There are still a few things that can make your day miserable i.e. gradation, dry aggregate etc.

Thanks for sharing your thread and sharing it to its completion. This is a victory for the pumping industry!